MM: Oh, good for them. I got the numbers, they don't.

IW: Who do you see as your main rival, NetBeans or Windows .Net?

MM: We clearly and have always felt that Eclipse is about enabling competition with Microsoft.

IW: How have you fared there?

MM: Actually, we started five years ago and I would say that starting from zero, the growth of Eclipse over the past five years has been absolutely phenomenal. It's been wonderful to see the development community embrace Eclipse the way it has over the last five years.