IW: But there's no further movement since then?

MW: No. And [in the] conversations I've had with Sun, they've made it pretty clear that they're not really interested in doing anything other than continuing to push their NetBeans strategy.

IW: What do you think of their being two kind of rival camps? Is it good for competition?

MM: Well, we're certainly not shy of competition, and frankly we're winning.

IW: They seem to say differently.